Curse

Genova · May 26, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Maelstrom, Deep freeze, Icy shackles, Blurred Vision, Freezing gust, Shatterstone, Armor of mist, Water trident, Vapor blade, etc...

Why should a character be able to have self defense, melee and caster shutdown, speed boost, snare, damage, into the same attribute ?

Yanman.be · May 26, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Because they cannot take it all? There's no water build that can do that all at once ~.~

Phades · May 26, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Eh? I thought warriors have been doing that since the begining of the game.

Why should it matter that water can do some damage and have utility at the same time?

Nurse With Wound · May 26, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

This game isn't just about the mindless DPS, and theres more to elementalists than mashing searing flames. Water elementalists offer many utility / support skills for the entire team. There is nothing wrong or overpowered in that. Its perfectly fine.

Saphatorael · May 26, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Maelstrom, Deep freeze, Icy shackles, Blurred Vision, Freezing gust, Shatterstone, Armor of mist, Water trident, Vapor blade, etc...

Why should a character be able to have self defense, melee and caster shutdown, speed boost, snare, damage, into the same attribute ?

I'd like to see you run that in GvG.

edwinna elbert · May 26, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Caster shutdown? You mean Mirror of Ice?

Urgh.

ShadowsRequiem · May 26, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by edwinna elbert

Caster shutdown? You mean Mirror of Ice?

Urgh.

no he means the people with peanut size brains wont move out of maelstrom.

Water is a great attribute, but tell me how many times you actually see people run it outside of high end pvp?

everyone runs SF cause they piggy back on gimmicky shit.

akurun · May 26, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

Maelstrom, Deep freeze, Icy shackles, Blurred Vision, Freezing gust, Shatterstone, Armor of mist, Water trident, Vapor blade, etc...

Why should a character be able to have self defense, melee and caster shutdown, speed boost, snare, damage, into the same attribute ?

Maelstrom = bodyguard shutdown, not caster shutdown. AoE is easy to move out of, especially adjacent.

If you're going to complain about any elementalist line, complain about air, they can have all of that, while only needing 5 skillslots, 4 if you don't count attunement. Bsurge, gale, lorb, some air speed boost(windborne or storm djinn's).

Also, water has no decent self-defense, which is why they go /Rt for weapon of warding and wielder's boon on flaggers, and blurred is only okay as melee shutdown on a split, in a hex team, or in unorganized pvp.

Genova · May 26, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Well, thanks for feedback. I don't like that some of you are taking it for a nerf call. By the way I forgot to mention Shatterstone or Frozen burst in the OP. Whatever, by the time as a monk, I try to get out of maelstrom I am dead because of knockdown + snare. This means it's really hard to do anything without assassin secondary and with good timing since you can get your return interrupted.

@ Phades. Warriors are melee only. That's enough balance for me.

@ Nurse. I know what you mean, but heh I guess the above scenario helps you to understand my point. Without another monk or gift of health, mend body and soul or <insert off-monk heal here>, it is hard to do anything. I don't like eles, especially the SF ones, so I consider your point about mindless DPS not relevant. Utility is fine, but perfect shutdown with damage and snare is overpowered in my opinion.

@Saphatorael. I guess that running maelstrom + freezing gust + water trident is impossible...

@akurun. I am not complaining, I am asking for people's opinion and I am fine with anyone who disagree with me as long as we can have an open-minded discussion. The air line is fine for me because, blindness is easily removed, and gale really costly if you want to use it as a snare. However the fact that a water ele can shutdown your attackers with spammable hexes (not as easily removed as conditions), while having maelstrom to shut you down like if you were dazed, while being able to do good damage isn't fair in my mind.

Sorry if I annoy you with this topic, but I can't understand the reasoning behind being able to do all that stuff in one attribute. All other professions have to use more than one attribute when they want to be versatile... or am I missing something ?

Bankai · May 26, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Have a good monk as a partner. It helps a lot.

akurun · May 26, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

@akurun. I am not complaining, I am asking for people's opinion and I am fine with anyone who disagree with me as long as we can have an open-minded discussion. The air line is fine for me because, blindness is easily removed, and gale really costly if you want to use it as a snare. However the fact that a water ele can shutdown your attackers with spammable hexes (not as easily removed as conditions), while having maelstrom to shut you down like if you were dazed, while being able to do good damage isn't fair in my mind.

Adjacent aoe is very easy to move out of, even while snared. Blurred vision is the only true melee shutdown in the water line, and 20 second recharge is hardly spammable. Also, maelstrom does almost nothing against prot monks, since most of their main skills are 1/4 second casts.

The majority of the water snare hexes are fairly short duration. Freezing Gust is 5 or 6 seconds at 14. Icy Shackles doesn't last long enough to keep up 3/4ths of the time. Deep Freeze doesn't outlast its casting time. Water trident is a 2 second conditional knockdown. Ice Spikes, Shard Storm, and the like last a fraction of their recharge because of their damage.

Frozen Burst is really the only spammable hex in the water line that doesn't have an extremely short duration. Most spammable water snares are spammable because they have to be or they'd be useless.

Most water snares are far from spammable.

List of water snares:
Deep Freeze: 10 second duration, 15 second recharge
Freezing Gust: 5 second duration, 5 second recharge
Frozen Burst(worthy of complaints, actually):10 sec duration, 5 sec recharge
Ice Spikes: 5 duration, 15 recharge
Icy Shackles: 9, 12
Mind Freeze: 8, 8
Shard Storm: 5, 10
Teinai's Prison/Ice Prison: 18, 30

bungusmaximus · May 27, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Most water spells have relatively long cast times. Water is fine imo, it requires more skill then mashing SF all the time and the effects are about just as devastating.

FoxBat · May 27, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Well, I wouldn't mind if blurred vision took a hit.

Genova · May 27, 2007, 08:21 AM // 08:21

@akurun. Hmm well... if you think that the knockdown from water trident while snared in a maelstrom is still conditional, then you should maybe explain me why. You can't avoid the snare since your hex removal skills are on cooldown because you used them for your melee. I consider the hexes spammable because most are aoe hexes. While the elementalist use only one spell, you still need to have one or two skill to clean your party, give me a non crappy (hex eater signet anyone ?) aoe hex removal, and I will consider your point. You can't avoid the maelstrom fast enough because of the snare, and after that you are knockdown. Honestly I don't think that 1/4s protection spells heal you for enough when obviously the water ele has a damage dealer friend nearby, you need a true heal now, and odds are slim to get that heal off. In a situation of perfect shutdown I always thought that you still have the ability to avoid damage altogether (blackout), by moving (kite and hide when dazed), by always be prepared (melee knockdown easily countered by a stance or shield bash).

Blurred vision should take a serious hit imo. 50% miss is too high, the other hexes are 25% with an additional effect, while blurred is 50% with aoe.

I know that snares are versatile, but in my mind a snared warrior is as inefficient than a blinded one. However you can't work around these hexes as easily as blindness.

around · May 27, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Blurred vision should take a serious hit imo. 50% miss is too high, the other hexes are 25% with an additional effect, while blurred is 50% with aoe.

Agreed. Needs to be 2 sec cast imo.

Phades · May 27, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

@ Phades. Warriors are melee only. That's enough balance for me.

Hippocracy, where? Oh yeah, and then there are teleports...

The utility water brings is fine, but if you really want to look at pressure, pressure based damge, or reliable "spike" you are barking up the wrong tree here. Trying to claim that this "does it all" is fairly absurd especially when the arguably "best" damage dealer it has is also roughly melee range and the ranged damage "options" are virtually non-existant by the same comparison and most of them are the staple of the utility within the line.

Patccmoi · May 27, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Imo Frozen Burst needs a nerf (recharge to 10-12 sec, maybe even 15) and Blurred Vision needs a change (along with most of the curse line!).

The rest is fine.

Water is one of the best line in the whole game imo BECAUSE it's versatile yet requires a brain to use. Water and Domination are about the 2 most interesting caster lines in the game in great part because good players can do various nice 'tricks' with them but those aren't brainless like throwing SF 3 times in a row.

The reason most caster lines are bad overall in PvP (Blood, Earth, Smite, Death, etc.) is because they suck out of gimmicks because they're so single-minded and have maybe 1-2 skills that are interesting in balanced play (like Earth has 2 wards, yay). The fact that Water and Domination are different is a GOOD thing, not a bad one.

Symbol · May 27, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Frozen burst should be 15e 3/4s 12r with regular aftercast.

Blurred Vision should be 10e 1s 10r and last 5...11...13 seconds.

That's really all that needs nerfing in water. BTW maelstrom is trash and vapor blade is...underwhelming.

Water is an example of a well balanced caster skill line, which is rare in this game.

Wasteland Squidget · May 27, 2007, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Blurred Vision should be 10e 1s 10r and last 5...11...13 seconds.

That nerf is a buff.

LifesRestorer · May 27, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

ever thought of preveiling?